39 replies to this topic

[haste]

Seems we have some similiar mix ups for these two as we do for Nasty Habits/Doc Scott etc.

http://www.rolldabeats.com/artist/x_project
http://www.rolldabeats.com/artist/conquering_lion

LION5   X Project & Frankie Paul (featuring Tenor Fly)   Jah Sunshine   2002
VTDCD595 X Project & Frankie Paul (featuring Tenor Fly) Jah Sunshine 2002
CONGOLP1 X Project & Frankie Paul (featuring Tenor Fly) Jah Sunshine (Ruff Neck Jungle Mix)
DUBPLATE1   Conquering Lion   Jah Sunshine

These are all the same thing.

(Ruff Neck Jungle Mix) should be deleted from the CONGOLP1 listing, I don't think that it's a different mix from the others. These all need to be listed the same including the Frankie Paul & Tenor FLy bits, which artist it is doesn't really matter.

Following on from that

UNRELEASED054   Conquering Lion   Old Skool Ting (Dub Plate Mix)   ???
UNRELEASED060 Conquering Lion Old Skool Ting (Murder Dub Mix)

These need to be called "Jah Sunshine" and have the same artist listed as the above tunes

CONGONATTY4   X Project   The Calling
LION12   X Project   Calling
DUBPLATE1   Conquering Lion   I Hear You Calling

I think that all these are the same track

You can see that we have the CONGONATTY4 one listed incorrectly from the scan http://www.rolldabeats.com/image/release/c...onatty4/side/aa

I guess we should list them as "Calling". Again, which artist you credit it to isn't really important but it should be the same as the one you choose for DUBPLATE1

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/greensleeves/gred5001

I'll need to check on this, but isn't the b-side just a dub mix of Under Me Sensi? If it is it should be listed as

Barrington Levy (feat. Beenie Man) - Under Mi Sensi (Jungle Dub) (X Project Remix)

Again, I have no proof (can anyone help out?) but I expect that Jah Set It on this 12"

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/congonatty2

Is actually Conquering Lion - Lion Of Judah (Boombastic Cut)

it also seems likely that this 12"

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/lion11

is going to be very similar to DUBPLATE3. I'm not sure that Lion Of Judah on there is any different to the other versions in the database and "Mix" can be deleted.

Does anyone know where we can get audio clips of these releases from, I know a lot of this is (educated) guesswork

CIDM821   Conquering Lion   Code Red   1994
TCD2756 Conquering Lion Code Red 1994
VTDCD595 Conquering Lion Code Red
CONGONATTY6   Conquering Lion   Code Red (Original Dubplate Mix)   1994
12MNG821 Conquering Lion Code Red (Original Dubplate Mix) 1994
MNG821 Conquering Lion Code Red (Original Dubplate Mix) 1994
12MNG821DJ Conquering Lion Code Red (Original Dubplate Mix) 1994
DUBPLATE4 Conquering Lion Code Red (Wild Apachi Mix)

These are all the same thing. Should they all be called "Wild Apache Mix"? This it the first instance of the tune, so the following ones should take the name I assume

There are loads more ways in which we could correct later Congo Natty releases but it's doing my head in now so I'll leave it  

[Ornette]

haste, on Dec 14 2005, 04:00 PM, said:

CIDM821   Conquering Lion   Code Red   1994
TCD2756 Conquering Lion Code Red 1994
VTDCD595 Conquering Lion Code Red
CONGONATTY6   Conquering Lion   Code Red (Original Dubplate Mix)   1994
12MNG821 Conquering Lion Code Red (Original Dubplate Mix) 1994
MNG821 Conquering Lion Code Red (Original Dubplate Mix) 1994
12MNG821DJ Conquering Lion Code Red (Original Dubplate Mix) 1994
DUBPLATE4 Conquering Lion Code Red (Wild Apachi Mix)

These are all the same thing. Should they all be called "Wild Apache Mix"? This it the first instance of the tune, so the following ones should take the name I assume

IN favour.  Mango version same as DUBPLATE 4 release - confirmed (I once thought 'Original Dubplate Version' refered to the original 'amen' mix of "Code Red" - which I now now is not the case - that mix remains unreleasded)

[Ornette]

haste, on Dec 14 2005, 04:00 PM, said:

Again, I have no proof (can anyone help out?) but I expect that Jah Set It on this 12"
http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/congonatty2

Is actually Conquering Lion - Lion Of Judah (Boombastic Cut)
it also seems likely that this 12"
http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/lion11

is going to be very similar to DUBPLATE3. I'm not sure that Lion Of Judah on there is any different to the other versions in the database and "Mix" can be deleted.

OK ultra confusion here.  The thing is the original DUBPLATE 3 release of this has two very different versions of same tune:
Lion Of Judah (Boombastic Cut)
&
Dub Plate Special (Ruff Cut)
With the former being the weak (Really weak) track, (which incidently was the one to get the play by  before everyone realised they should play the other side), I find it hard to believe that "Boombastic Cut"  would be the one on LION11  The one featured is more likely to be the "Dub Plate Special (Ruff Cut)" mix

With two mixes of the same track having such wildly dissimilar titles, I propose: Can we retitle the latter on DUBPLATE 3 to: Lion Of Judah (Ruff Cut) please?  Then we can retitle the others as so:

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/ras02
Conquering Lion - Lion Of Judah (DJ Kane Remix) b/w Lion Of Judah (Ray Keith Remix)

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/ras07
http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/jahras07 (2005)
1996, eh?  We already had the Kane/Ray Keith mixes of it, for god's sakes! Honestly!

Actually,. come to think of this, I think this was just a re-release of the DJ Kane remix.  Conquering Lion - Lion Of Judah (DJ Kane Remix)

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/champion99
Conquering Lion - Lion Of Judah (DJ Kane Remix)
(incidentally, do you think maybe we should keep the "feat. Jah Cure" suffix appended to the artist name?)

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/lion11
(having to check with Discogs to confirm what exactly were the orginal titles on this release... )
X Project - "Set It (Original Unreleased Version)" b/w  "Untitled (Ras Project 2 Dub)"
Eh?  Is the A side really any different to the "Lion Of Judah (Ruff Cut)" mix?
I think these titles better be reinstated to the database until someone has a listen to this...

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/rasproject2
Looking at RASPROJECT01 I feel it is fair to say this one must be the Conquering Lion - Lion Of Judah (Ruff Cut) version. Additionally, considering the LION11 release above, I think we can give the title "Untitled" to the B side
(then LION11 - perhaps rename side B to "Untitled (Dubplate Mix)" ?)

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/congonatty2

Pretty certain we can call this as being: Conquering Lion - Lion Of Judah (Ruff Cut)
(those year 'dates' on the vinyl - that's a bit rich innit? I know those tunes were ahead of their time, but they wern't that ahead Rebel MC...  :laugh: )

[Ornette]

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/x_project/xproject2
http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/x_project/dubplate2

Two things: I'm not convinced DUBPLATE2 exists. Who provided this information? Does anyone have it? Or is this just a case of chinese whispers?

Just because there was a DUBPLATE3, a DUBPLATE4, and a DUBPLATE1 does not mean there was a DUBPLATE2.  Anyone taking the briefest look at the Congo Natty listings will see what a mess has been made of the catalogue numers.  There is no reason why any kind of linearity should be expected here.

Personally, and as you were certain yourself, Haste, there is no way "Old Skool Ting" (aka Jah Sunshine) b/w "Calling" came out in 1993, NO WAY did it it surface BEFORE Inah Sound & Lion Of Judah. At the MOST DUBPLATE1  MAY have appeared VERY LATE 1993 but I dont think so. I never heard this track until well into the months of 1994!

So DUBPLATE1 came out after DUBPLATE3 and DUBPLATE4 - I can accept that.  Completely erratic? - yes. But unlikely? No.


In any case:
Just like DUBPLATE3, XPROJECT2 has alternate mixes of the same tune with wildly differing titles.
Can we see these tracks retitled as such:
Conquering Lion  -  Inah Sound  
Conquering Lion  -  Inah Sound (Outah Sound Mix)  
Conquering Lion  -  Inah Sound (King David Dub Mix) or perhaps just "Inah Sound (King David Dub)"?

[Ornette]

haste, on Dec 14 2005, 04:00 PM, said:

DUBPLATE1   Conquering Lion   Jah Sunshine

..These are all the same thing...

UNRELEASED054   Conquering Lion   Old Skool Ting (Dub Plate Mix)   ???
UNRELEASED060 Conquering Lion Old Skool Ting (Murder Dub Mix)
These need to be called "Jah Sunshine" and have the same artist listed as the above tunes

CONGONATTY4   X Project   The Calling
LION12   X Project   Calling
DUBPLATE1   Conquering Lion   I Hear You Calling

I think that all these are the same track

Hmmm
http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/rasdub1
"I Give You" huh?  Wonder what that track is.  Oh and its backed by "Calling"?  Interesting

3 names for one track "Old Skool Ting", "I Give You", "Jah Sunshine"  Which title do we decide on?

[Ornette]

Ornette, on Jan 6 2006, 01:13 AM, said:

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/lion11
(having to check with Discogs to confirm what exactly were the orginal titles on this release... )
X Project - "Set It (Original Unreleased Version)" b/w  "Untitled (Ras Project 2 Dub)"
Eh?  Is the A side really any different to the "Lion Of Judah (Ruff Cut)" mix?
I think these titles better be reinstated to the database until someone has a listen to this...

Yep, its the same DUBPLATE3 "Dub Plate Special" tune!  NO differences
(original unreleased version indeed! yeah probably - for all the new kids)

----

Checking this out, I can now see that
http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/lion11
is just the same as
http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/rasproject2

LION11 being the 2004 repress.

Think we need to give the B side a name so that they will correspond to each other in the database. "Untitled (Ras Project 2)" is what seems to be on the label (according to Discogs)... do we go with that or choose something tidier?  Its some real old sounding tune - this one sounds like it really might date back to 1991

----

EXTRA - turns out this untitled track is same as "Ghetto Gheddon" on
http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/congonatty2 !!!!!!!!

[Ornette]

haste, on Dec 14 2005, 04:00 PM, said:

CONGOLP1 X Project & Frankie Paul (featuring Tenor Fly) Jah Sunshine (Ruff Neck Jungle Mix)

(Ruff Neck Jungle Mix) should be deleted from the CONGOLP1 listing, I don't think that it's a different mix from the others. These all need to be listed the same including the Frankie Paul & Tenor FLy bits, which artist it is doesn't really matter.

No, there are two released versions of Jah Sunshine, each version gracing either side of the LION5 release. Side A corresponds to the album. Has a "Helicopter" break woven into the mix. So please keep the (Ruff Neck Jungle Mix) for:

LION5 X Project & Frankie Paul (featuring Tenor Fly) Jah Sunshine  (TRACK A1!!!)
CONGOLP1 X Project & Frankie Paul (featuring Tenor Fly) Jah Sunshine
VTDCD595 X Project & Frankie Paul (featuring Tenor Fly) Jah Sunshine (yes this one too...)

Side B doesn't have that "Helicopter" break and seems to have a few more vocal samples added here & there & possibly slightly different b line. B side is actually titled "Dubplate 1" as well. So - add suffix (Original Mix) to:

DUBPLATE1 X Project & Frankie Paul (featuring Tenor Fly) Jah Sunshine
LION5 X Project & Frankie Paul (featuring Tenor Fly) Jah Sunshine  Side B this time!!!

[Ornette]

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/rasproject1
Congo Natty "Ras Project" = Conquering Lion - "Lion Of Judah (Boombastic Cut)"

(yes, that's the Boombastic Cut version, this time)

[Ornette]

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/congonatty4
Is a same as this
http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/lion12

- the A side = "Calling" (of course)
- the unknown B side = "Jungle Flow"  (but what do we use as artist name?)

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/congonatty4
Is same as this
http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/lion11
Is the same as this
http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/rasproject2

- the A side = "Lion Of Judah (Ruff Cut)" (of course)
- the unknown B side = "Ghetto Gheddon"

[haste]

Ornette, on Jan 6 2006, 01:34 AM, said:

Two things: I'm not convinced DUBPLATE2 exists. Who provided this information? Does anyone have it? Or is this just a case of chinese whispers?

I'll check my copy but pretty sure the info came from me. Will have a look tonight. I've never seen a 12 saying XPROJECT2 on it, that was the one that I wasn't sure existed.

Having it as XPROJECT2 might actually make sense. It would (sort of) explain DUBPLATE1 coming out at a later date, being the first 1994 release from the label(?) and all the others in 93 following some sort of order

XPROJECT1
XPROJECT2/DUBPLATE2
DUBPLATE3
DUBPLATE4

Ornette, on Jan 6 2006, 01:34 AM, said:

In any case:
Just like DUBPLATE3, XPROJECT2 has alternate mixes of the same tune with wildly differing titles.
Can we see these tracks retitled as such:
Conquering Lion  -  Inah Sound  
Conquering Lion  -  Inah Sound (Outah Sound Mix)  
Conquering Lion  -  Inah Sound (King David Dub Mix) or perhaps just "Inah Sound (King David Dub)"?

Sounds like a fair enough suggestion. They are definitely all mixes of the same tune

Ornette, on Jan 6 2006, 02:25 AM, said:

Hmmm
http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/rasdub1
"I Give You" huh?  Wonder what that track is.  Oh and its backed by "Calling"?  Interesting

3 names for one track "Old Skool Ting", "I Give You", "Jah Sunshine"  Which title do we decide on?

Correct me if I'm wrong but "Jah Sunshine" is the only thing I've ever seen written on a label on an official Congo Natty release. I've no idea where "Old Skool Ting" actually came from, it seems to be a name that has existed forever but I have never seen an official release refer to it in that way.

"Jah Sunshine" appears to be most commonly used named by Rebel himself so I'd suggest sticking to that.

Ornette, on Jan 6 2006, 04:20 AM, said:

No, there are two released versions of Jah Sunshine, each version gracing either side of the LION5 release. Side A corresponds to the album. Has a "Helicopter" break woven into the mix. So please keep the (Ruff Neck Jungle Mix) for:

Any chance of audio for the alternative mix? I don't think I've heard another released version.

Ornette, on Jan 6 2006, 06:27 AM, said:

- the unknown B side = "Jungle Flow"  (but what do we use as artist name?)

I think where there is no artist name we should use "Conquering Lion" as standard. This is probably the most commonly used alias. Anyone disagree?

Guest, on Jan 6 2006, 07:30 AM, said:

All this talk about renaming tracks from what is actually printed on the records leaves a funny taste in my mouth. Using the song names printed on the records is how people find entries in the database!

I know what you're saying and, usually, I wouldn't want to change entries in the db to this extent. Most changes that we make are very small and don't affect track names in such a large way.

The problem being with all these Congo Natty releases is that they're all over the place and very confusing. A lot of them contain the same tracks but, looking at the labels, you wouldn't really know that.

I think people might find the changes we make much more useful as it tells you exactly what is on these 12s and not what is printed (which on many releases, especially old skool, is actually completely wrong). Loads of these are just whites anyway, so making these changes is actually very useful.

I know for a fact that Rebel himself has a hard time remembering what is what and these mistakes are most likely down to him not remembering things properly.

We're trying to get a sense of uniformity in the database and not have a series of releases that look like they have 15 different tracks on them whereas the reality is that they are all actually the same thing






Anyway, this thread is really hurting my head.

Thijs: I'd suggest making no updates to any of this yet. We should research it all a bit more before anything is changed

[haste]

Checked my DUBPLATE2 copy and that is what is etched. XPROJECT2 is crossed out in the runout.

Does it exist as a 12" with XPROJECT2 not crossed out?

[Ornette]

Guest, on Jan 6 2006, 07:30 AM, said:

All this talk about renaming tracks from what is actually printed on the records leaves a funny taste in my mouth. Using the song names printed on the records is how people find entries in the database!

We're taking the mystery away from the Congo Natty enthusiasts and giving it to the people.  

However - What I believe can be done is to have the release titles kept true.  

The database seems to allow each release to have its own specific artist marker & release title.  Then, within that release, each individual track can be allowed to have its own artist & title name.

This would be the same technique that allows RDB to list 'Various Artists' releases.  So, people would still be able find their releases by the label details, and enjoy the benifits of having (and then being able to cross-reference) the correct track & artist information supplied to them.

It's not just an exercise in 'looking pretty' as some may think or suggest.

[Ornette]

Ornette, on Jan 6 2006, 01:13 AM, said:

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/champion99
Conquering Lion - Lion Of Judah (DJ Kane Remix)
(incidentally, do you think maybe we should keep the "feat. Jah Cure" suffix appended to the artist name?)

Turns out this is a different mix to the DJ Kane remix on http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/ras02

Needs to be called:
Conquering Lion - Lion Of Judah (DJ Kane '99 Remix) or similar

Still want to know what this Jah Cure connection is.  Have a suspicion that the 'original' Jah Set It is in fact a completely different tune...

[spoox]

Ornette, on Jan 6 2006, 10:32 PM, said:

Turns out this is a different mix to the DJ Kane remix on http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/ras02

Needs to be called:
Conquering Lion - Lion Of Judah (DJ Kane '99 Remix) or similar

Still want to know what this Jah Cure connection is.  Have a suspicion that the 'original' Jah Set It is in fact a completely different tune...

I have a bunch of cover scans up here:
http://www.congonatty.com/pictures.phtml

Including this one:


The RAS7 version there has a short bit of the Jah Cure vocals from "Let Jah Be Praised" in the intro, but the rest focuses more on the "somewhere deep in the jungle" samples and "so we set it, seh no bwoy cyaan take it" samples from "Set It", but then reverts back to the Jah Cure vocals for the last part of the tune.

So.. There you have it

A kind of mix of "Let Jah Be Praised" and "Set It".. Hence "Jah Set It"

lo-fi clip (full):

[spoox]

And some other notes:

"dubplate 1" aka "ras dub 1":

1. Didn't this one have "ol skool ting" etched? It's a black label 10"... The one I saw had "RAS DUB 1" etched one one side atleast - don't remember the other side.

2. Are these the same 10"s, or did one with "dubplate 1" come first, then "ras dub 1" come as a repress or edition afterwards?

3. As for the name and release year of it, the "Jah Sunshine" title I think eventually came around when the "12 years of.." album with Tenor Fly was released, as one of those vinyls say..

JAH SUNSHINE - 1994
RUFF NECK JUNGLE

..and I guess that was the intended title for the tune. I don't think I've ever seen a proper title for the "Calling" tune.

Ornette, on Jan 6 2006, 03:25 AM, said:

Hmmm
http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/rasdub1
"I Give You" huh?  Wonder what that track is.  Oh and its backed by "Calling"?  Interesting

3 names for one track "Old Skool Ting", "I Give You", "Jah Sunshine"  Which title do we decide on?

I think the "I Give You" title was just something people came up for it because there wasn't a known title. Same as with "Calling".... They're just exerpts from the vocals.

Maybe adding an alias for track names would solve the whole issue  :wink:

[thijs]

spoox, on Jan 7 2006, 02:21 PM, said:

Maybe adding an alias for track names would solve the whole issue  :wink:

lol... you mentioned that when i was setting up the very first database structure for tarzan :doh:

[Ornette]

spoox, on Jan 7 2006, 01:03 PM, said:

The RAS7 version there has a short bit of the Jah Cure vocals from "Let Jah Be Praised" in the intro, but the rest focuses more on the "somewhere deep in the jungle" samples and "so we set it, seh no bwoy cyaan take it" samples from "Set It", but then reverts back to the Jah Cure vocals for the last part of the tune.

:think:

Ornette, on Jan 6 2006, 01:13 AM, said:

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/ras07
Actually, come to think of this, I think this was just a re-release of the DJ Kane remix.

Hmmm seems like I was almost right.  Stick the needle in the middle and it sounds almost identical to the DJ Kane RAS02 remix version.   Well almost - drum tracks a bit different.  Obviously I didn't stop long enough to listen to the rest of it - I just assumed it was just a re-release!  (Don't think I would have bought it even if I did!)

spoox, on Jan 7 2006, 01:03 PM, said:

So.. There you have it

A kind of mix of "Let Jah Be Praised" and "Set It".. Hence "Jah Set It"

Does this tune deserve its own name, therefore?  I really don't know.  Can we really bend as much to say that its just another version of "Set It" i.e. "Lion Of Judah"?  

Evidence:  "...somewhere... deep in the jungle..." vocal,
numerous "...set it..." snippets,  
the "...la di da di da di da..." line,
the b line from the DJ Kane remix...

I think I would try to call this:
Conquering Lion feat. Jah Cure - Lion Of Judah (Congo Natty Remix)
or maybe
Conquering Lion feat. Jah Cure - Lion Of Judah (Congo Natty 'Jah Is My Guide' Remix)

[Ornette]

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/congo_natty/congonatty1
Can I just point out that the label says Walking not Walkin'.  As well, no sign of any prefix Snowman

Unles there is details to the contrary (like on the The Dark Side Vol. 2 album) can we keep titles as they are on the label?


http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/x_project/xproject1

X1: Walkin' In The Air                    =   Walking In The Air (Original Dubplate Mix)   
X2: Walkin' In The Air (Version 2)   =   Walking In The Air (Dubwise Mix)
Y1: Walkin' In The Air (Version 3)   =   Walking In The Air (Part 2)   
Y2: Walkin' In The Air (Version 4)   

Where as the "Dubwise" mix is like a stripped down roots reggae version, the 'version 4' on the original release is a jungled up mix of the "Dubwise" mix.  Maybe title:

Y2: Walkin' In The Air (Dubwise Jungle Mix)
?

[haste]

Yeah, I think it should just be labelled as "Walking In The Air", no need for any "Snowman" stuff in there.

The "Original Dubplate Mix" is defintiely the same as the 1st track on XPROJECT1.

The mix on the React LP should be the "Original Dubplate Mix", I think. It's either that or "Part 2".