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question/discuss thread


Guest HOOK

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what about a place to ask questions and discuss? keeping the info. threads free of B.S. is the most important for sure, but a seperate one would be cool. other sites' boards are no good for getting really specific. being able to ask for lyrics and the like would really increase the volume of info. as well.

 

this is what brought this up...

 

listen to black cat 01 (unknown 4 tracker)... it's credited to congo natty, but it sounds exactly like a PJ/smiley-bass master warriors tune... exactly. where did the congo natty info come from?

 

discuss.

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I've been trying to hunt down some audio for these releases. I found a SOUR mp3 rip of #2, and it credits Congo Natty in the folder name. SOUR gets shit wrong all the time, though, so if this is the only authority we have on this, we should disregard it. That being said, I wasn't able to download the mp3s, so I can't hear them for myself to see if I hear any Redlight styles in 'em. Can anyone help with some audio?

 

Regarding questions, as long as the questions are pertinent to the topics our forums cover, I think posting the question in the appropriate forum is fine. For instance, starting/bumping a thread in the "Labels" forum about Black Cat (which you've done) to ask a question is perfectly acceptable

 

B-)

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right... but what i meant was more or less asking about things that aren't on here or cases of indentification... like "who know the lyrics to this" (may get the attention of someone who knows)... i see how this could cloud things up though, so...

 

and, not the red-light sound... specifically, the BMW sound (EXACTLY like "livin in the hood" on big G)... but since BMW & redlight are the same, you know.

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It might be nice to have a question/discuss thread, I've sort of desired one of these on the forum for a while, to have somewhere to post threads on general topics of discussion.

 

Got a few starters as well, such as discussing "good tunes that have been ruined by bad engineering"

or maybe "how did the happy/dark split actually develop?"

 

But how would we choose what was relevant or not? This is the problem, really. What would stop people adding "best tune of 2005" type threads or "who is the best DJ"?

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Like Logic said there's no reason why you can't start a thread in any of the forums with discussions of lables/artists etc.

 

At the moment, I really don't see the need for a pure discussion forum on non-info related topics. There are loads of forums out there in which you can discuss your favourite tunes and all of that kind of stuff.

 

I think the forum on RDB works really well for getting correct info into the DB and I think that if I go to click "View New Posts" to look over what people have been posting and have to go through a load of "Who is your favourite DJ" posts inamongst all the information topics then we might start missing the discussions that are actually important.

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Sorry to derail this thread a bit guys, but I'm a bit interested in what hook says here:

 

and, not the red-light sound... specifically, the BMW sound (EXACTLY like "livin in the hood" on big G)... but since BMW & redlight are the same, you know.

 

I'm curious as to where you draw this conclusion that BMW = Red Light? It's not the first time I've heard it, but maybe I'm missing something obvious here? :) Honestly, I would have guessed Talking Breaks/BMW/whoever were completely different, only thing I really didn't look into was the contact #'s listed on the BMW label.

 

I can understand Black Tracks = Red Light, but BMW = Red Light??

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STG, cheers for the mp3s. I had a listen through and am also a bit confused as to why BMW = Red Light. To me these tunes sound absolutely nothing like any SUAD/Red Light tracks....where did you get this info from?
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they don't sound like any suad/red light tunes, i agree. that doesn't mean they aren't pj and smiley though. i specifially said that BMW's "living in the hood" on big G sounds exactly like the b2 track on black cat 002. now, i personally believe that BMW is pj and smiley, but i can't prove it--- i have seen several reputable statements over the years and i just sense that it is. the clash samples are pure red light. although the actual beats sound much different, that is what i would expect from a side project single release. "before i let jungle go EP" could (reasonably) mean that this was the culmination of a long jungle career, as well. plus, "black cat" and "red light" seem like similar monikers too me-- almost a play on words. i'm not trying to argue here, i actually figured to have you guys square it away for me. i do have a good ear for these things though, as i've ID'd lots and lots of tunes and made similar comparisons that turned out to be accurate in the past--- before actually ID'ing them.

just check them out side by side, if they don't sound the same to you we'll have to agree to disagree. do the same with "how many black men have you had anna?" and "pum pum mus smoke ganja." i guess at this point it's a matter of opinion.

 

this thread itself prooves that there shouldn't be a section for threads like this. i appreciate the depth of conversation here, but drawing the line would be a problem... so, you're right. bad idea. this place is too good to mess up like that.

 

take care

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I think this thread is an example of exactly the type of threads that DO belong here. This is totally the sort of thing that I'd like to see people discussing. All that I'm against is posts like "Which MC is the best: Skibba or Shabba" and things like that. This is perfect legitimate relevant conversation.

 

I hear you on the clash samples. They sound exactly like many bits used on Red Light tunes but that alone can't be the basis for an alias. It's possible that many of the clips are from the same clash tape(s) that SUAD used so no wonder they sound the same!

 

The beats and bass really don't sound anything like PJ & Smiley and, seeing as Red Light was one of the most identifiable labels by their sound alone, it's hard to really believe that these are in any way related, for me, at least.

 

Pum Pum & Red Light stuff do have similarities, that's true. But then there's a link there. Hype & SUAD go back a long way and Hype was always a massive fan of Red Light tracks. It's highly conceivable that he wrote a tune in a similar style because he liked their tracks so much. Also, the beats on Pum Pum are classic Hype, very similar to his other productions - the high pitched double time beats, the cut up amen and quick bass edits that come in later. How Many Black Men... seems to share a lot more in common, beats-wise, with previous Red Light tunes, not Hype productions. Also, the sample. The intro sample is the same as the Red Light track featured on the Still Smoking album, The Future Is Dark, just cut in a different way.

 

I'm not sure that I agree that a side project would sound very different. Black Tracks was a Red Light side project and it's obviously the same producers as it follows the typical Red Light sound only featuring less of the warp/dred bass samples.

 

I think the fact that the labels both contain colours in their name is reaching for connections a bit. Which reputable statements have you seen over the years? I'd be interested to know :)

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I think this thread is an example of exactly the type of threads that DO belong here. This is totally the sort of thing that I'd like to see people discussing. All that I'm against is posts like "Which MC is the best: Skibba or Shabba" and things like that. This is perfect legitimate relevant conversation.

 

i could not agree more.

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:excl:

 

Maybe you guys could make this thread a sticky? I enjoy these types of threads personally, like the thread over at r-j talking about DAT001, as I find this kind of information gathering fascinating. :)

 

Would love to check out that Black Cat record myself!

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haha, this is coming full circle then. this is what i meant in my first post. conversations about jungle that we obsessed can really crank into.

anyhow...

you know haste, i totally forgot about blacktracks somehow. and my comments about the simliarities between label names wasn't meant to be the balls portion of my case by any means, just another observation.

 

i'm not too heavy into my dancehall/sound system knowledge, but i know that pj and smiley started there (ribs' unity at first, right? i think they actually knew mike west from there, too). granted the loyalty associated with that culture, it's understandable that they sample the same soundsystem so often (which one is it by the way?). so we agree on the clash samples then. now, as you don't see the similarities between clash samples used as being evidence for your case, i don't see the difference in the overall sound of the beats as evidence for yours. assuming it's a side project (who would do a one off at this level of quality?), i find it totally reasonable the difference in sound. again, assuming this IS redlight, why not just release it on red light? they used blacktracks, as you mentioned, for less experimental sounding tunes with less dread bass. they could have taken the idea further with big G. i wouldn't figure "selectors roll rmx" on riddim track and a KOTJ tune to be dextrous if i were unaware (beats-wise: sample style, again, is similar)... or think about all the potential bad boy incarnations--- lots of different sound styles. 4 hero vs. tom & jerry? i don't know. not much for for me to say on this as none of us really knows. none of you can talk to any big shots?

 

as for "how many black men have you had, anna?"... haste, i will ship you a case of newcastle pints if this turns out not to be hype :D. that bass isn't similar to pum pum mus smoke... it's the same!

 

has anyone listened to the black cat 002 B2 and BMW "living in the hood" side by side yet? haha, that's really my whole point!

 

wouldn't it be funny if BMW turned out to be congo natty?!?!?!?!?

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oh... you want to know exactly which statements i've seen over the years? well, i haven't given titles to these statements and i don't catalogue my internet use, but i can remember two people. i'll ask them privately first to avoid them the heat i'm currently feeling on this :D. i think i remember also reading something from the raggajungle group that natty used to run. basically i can recall not dismissing those statements as nonsense.

 

who can i send a couple hundred label scans (.MPG) too for the database?

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:excl:?

 

Maybe you guys could make this thread a sticky?? I enjoy these types of threads personally, like the thread over at r-j talking about DAT001, as I find this kind of information gathering fascinating. :)

 

Would love to check out that Black Cat record myself!

Good idea!

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Yeah, PJ & Smiley started out with a reggae sound system - with DJ Hype, incidentally.

 

People sample the same stuff all the time, you can't use that as a reason for artists being aliases. If that were the case then Remarc, Rebel MC, Deadly D, Dillinja & Smokey Joe would all be the same people.

 

"i don't see the difference in the overall sound of the beats as evidence for yours. assuming it's a side project (who would do a one off at this level of quality?), i find it totally reasonable the difference in sound."

 

I don't really get what you're trying to say here. Red Light/SUAD had a pretty standard sound for years (a lot of their early stuff sounded similar too), one that could be identified pretty easily. It's crazy to say that because it doesn't sound like them it means that it may well be them! In my opinion the BMW 12" is OK but not amazing and certainly not produced to such high levels as to think that it has to be a big name behind it. I have loads of white labels and underground releases that have excellent production on them but I know for a fact aren't an alias of some big name artist, just someone who put out a couple of tunes years ago.

 

You wouldn't figure a KOTJ tune to be Dextrous?! They all follow the trademark production styles of the man! It's so easy to single out a Dextrous tune from that era, especially the earlier tunes. PBB sounded the same for a long time. His stuff on Limited E is all in a similar style as well as his jungle things on Ibiza, there's definitely a simlarity between a lot of his tunes. As for Tom & Jerry those tunes are unmistakeably the work of the 4 Hero guys, the styles are so similar. Even if you didn't know it was them it would be so easy to work out.

 

I don't know what to say about the "How Many Black Men" tune, I'm not the only one who is 100% convinced that it's Red Light. In fact I've never heard anyone else mention that they think it's Hype. I reckon you should get down the boozer and work out some postage costs ;) ;) ;) ;) hehe!

 

Just send any label scans to rolldabeats@gmail.com - cheers for anything that you send over :D

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4am and tired... tired of typing! system with hype? no kidding.

but, i'm being way misunderstood here. i'm not saying that because it doesn't sound like them, that it is them. i'm saying that because it doesn't sound like they usually do--- doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't. that WOULD be crazy.

 

you think that dextrous on riddim track (besides victory rmxs) sounds like KOTJ? don't try to pass that i don't know dextrous. i didn't say that if i heard a KOTJ track that i couldn't ID it as dex. i meant that if i heard "switch" and then "salute the king" (IF I DIDN'T KNOW ANY BETTER) i probably couldn't tell. i know you've heard "switch" or the riddim track selectors roll obviously... those don't remind me of salute the king or the like. wait, just compare selectors rolls! but to be honest, i didn't choose very good examples. but, are you telling me that you've never heard artists who use 2 or 3 different sound styles? if it weren't the case then rolldabeats wouldn't provide so much to learn from! here's a better example--- prizna --- terry t --- noise factory.

 

i'm too tired to get into potential bad boy. i still swear he can't be the original RAW, but if he is--- that stuff sounds lots different than his typical as well

 

now i'm not saying that samples are exclusive to artists! give me more credit than that man, that's ludicrous. no examples even necessary. how could i even be in this conversation without that understanding at least that?!?!? i even said we agreed on that part--- was just going off about red light's clash samples before leading into the next point. and you tried that very logic with the samples at the beginning of "how many black men have you had, anna" by linking them to another hype tune!

 

this is turning into semantics, though... bottom line? 1. who knows who BMW/black cat are for sure? not me. i'll def. ease up on that link though! (**** OK I"M STUCK IN CAPS< DON"T KNOW WHY*****) TWO> MAKE SURE TO LET ME KNOW ABOUT THAT HYPE TUNE HAHA

 

NOW TELL ME WHO COMMANDO ALAN JAMMING NAM AND LIUTENANT AJ CRACKER ARE!

 

WHO"S GOT THE NEXT DEBATE?

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I getcha, I'm just being a picky git...ignore me ;) ;)

 

I don't know the Dex things on Riddim Track so can't comment. Some of his later stuff does sound a but different, I'll give you that. I'm not sure about RAW being PBB. Doesn't make sense to me but it's taken from a record sleeve - a slightly unreliable one, though!

 

I think I might actually be able to ask Hype about the tune...I'll chase it up and see what I can sort out :D

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before i get called out...

i looked and it's not called "before i let jungle go EP"

 

that's just the name of the first tune that's listed.

 

what are the extra etchings in there? they're smaller than the cat # and on the oposite side-- same with the few recs. i pulled out to check.

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